From: tierce@my-dejanews.com Rebel Science Theather 3000 Episode Two (Was Re; Micheal Wong is digging his own grave.) Please Note: I am writing this on WebTV so bare with me if the formatting is off. ---------------------------------------------------- [Aboard the Federation Prison moon, Jyu VII, our Rebel heroes await for the next punishment Starfleet has in store.] [Captain Janeway appears on the viewscreen. Chewie growls in a romantic jesture.] Han: Settle down Chewie, she's not a Wookie. Chewie: *growls in disapointment* Mon Montha: What do you want, Starfleet. Janeway: I'm just here droping off your latest post to read. Rebels: groan. Seven of Nine: Just read it and get it done. Leia: Hey aren't you that Borg bimbo who trying to get Voyager better ratings? Seven: I am borg, ratings are futile. Leia: Oh, that's witty. Tell me, girlfriend, who writes your material? (The rebels start laughing their kriffing asses off.) Janeway: Just get to work. Wedge: Aye aye, Captain Lameway. (Janeway disappears from the screen) Lando: I hate to admit it, that Seven chick is boosting my ratings right now. Garieal: Well, in an outfit like that any man willbe turned on. But, it's funny how StarTrek says that they're always more politically correct than us, yet look at women in the Federation are veiwed. Han: Explain, Miss Captison. Garieal: They're obviously treated like a peice of Bantha meat. Look how they dress in the TOS-era. The modern Trek era is no better. As a women, I'm glad that I don't live in the Trek Universe. Leia: Well, while ST chicks might have more sexy appeal, us SW chick will always more class. The SW chicks: Here, here! Threepio: Speaking of SW chicks. Where is Mara Jade. Luke: She's running late. She had to appear in another IST3k. In article , he791859@merlin.uqam.ca (PAUL JACQUES H.JR) wrote: > Wayne Poe (louis@h4h.com) wrote: > > > > **From Mike Wong. Enjoy! > > > > It is a honor to talk to the great one. Han: Thank you! Jacen: He was talking about Mike Wong, daddy. > > > The real nonsense is claiming knowledge about a subject that has a > > > fictional basis. > > > > I claim knowledge about real science, and I apply it to > > these two SCIENCE fiction > > universes. Your approach is "to hell with science, we should > > base the decision on > > random nonsense." > > Not quite! My approach is based on common sense. If it was proposed > in a episode or a film, in the sci-fi context, then that overrides > science. Why? Because it is sci-fi. Luke: Then what are the laws and theories in Sci-Fi. Lando: None really. So basically you can make up anything you want. Luke: Classical Paul. > > I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if you want to claim > > that ST is better "just because", then that's fine. > > But if you want to claim that > > ST is better on some technical level, then you have to prove > > it ON SOME TECHNICAL > > LEVEL. And "technical" means that you are going > > to have to submit to the rigours > > of the scientific METHOD, otherwise you might as > > well claim that the Federation > > will win because their logo is shinier. > > Okay! I will play it your way. > > > > It must have sufficient gravity to retain > > > > an atmosphere. Atmospheres don't > > > > stick to planets for no reason, you know. > > > > A little thing called "gravity" > > > > keeps them where they are. Duh. > > > > > > Since you claim the Empire is an advance civilization then the concept > > > of terraforming, artificial gravity is not foreign to them. So who > > > says that Alderaan has not been > > > terraformed and has no artificial gravity. > > > If that is the case then its mass is not what you stated. > > > > Occam's Razor. Ever heard of it? It is most > > likely that it was a natural planet, > > and we have seen nothing to contradict that > > conclusion. This is a far simpler and > > more logical conclusion than your notion > > that someone went to a small moon, > > installed massive artificial gravity generators, > > imported an atmosphere and a > > biosystem, and set it all up just so they could > > avoid having to use one of the > > billions of normal planets in the galaxy. > > 'It is most likely' is not a certainty. To determine the binding energy > of a planet you must be sure of its gravity. Can you confirm without > a doubt that Alderaan is not a terrafromed planet with an artificial > gravity? If not then the power level you found is a speculation and not > a fact. Based that science rellies on facts. Leia: Gee, what does Paul want? Does he want Lucas to write the trilogy in some technobabble format. To explai every little detail? Luke: Futhermore, what proof does Paul have about Alderaan being a teraformed world? Ackbar: Even if Alderaan was a teraformed planet, with artifical gravity, it would not matter because the Death Star has the firepower to destroy ANY terristrail planet. > > > > Simple. I never stated that > > > > it was a normal laser. It OBVIOUSLY isn't a > > > > normal laser. > > > > > > Since you don't know the nature of the beam. How can you put a value > > > on its power? Who says that the beam did not forced a rapid > > > expansion and vaporization of the center core? Remember the center > > > core of Earth is made of Iron. We know that when heated metals expands. > > > The pressure of that expansion and vaporization of the center core > > > would be more consisent with the explosion witness in the film. > > > > Again you demonstrate your incredible ignorance of science. > > Of course it forces a > > rapid expansion and vapourization of the core- > > that's exactly what it looks like, > > and that's what you would need to hurl the outer > > layers outwards at high velocity. > > But this doesn't change the energy requirement, > > which is based on Conservation of > > Energy. For the millionth time, the energy state > > afterwards, minus the energy > > state before, equals the energy input. Conservation > > of Energy. The FOUNDATION of > > all science. Look it up sometime- I think they > > normally try to introduce the > > concept to high school students around grade 10, > > but some people are slow > > learners. > > Very clever way to mislead! With this logic the power of a exploding > hollow bowling ball, having gun powder in it, is the power of the > match that ignite it. Remember the purpose was to found the power of the > DS's superlaser. You admit that it was the vaporization of the center > core. The center core is made of Iron. We know also the radius of > the center core is 1.22*10^6 meters. So the volume would be: > 7.61*10^18 m^3. To vaporize that mass you need: 4.54*10^29 J > You know also that the planet is a closed system and the gases due to > the vaporization of the core will push and break the crust. So claiming > that the DS's superlaser power is more is misleading and false. > Simple chemistry. Callista: Where is Paul getting these numbers from? Since he claimed earlier that Alderaan is terraformed, and this is Sci-fi. So, ANY claim about the Deathstar's fire power is not misleading. Artoo beeps. Threepio: Artoo says that Paul is using his double standard again. Luke: obvisously. > > > The ISDs stayed, for that > > > period of time, in the asteroid field because > > > they were firing on the asteroids coming at them. Like you said they > > > reduce the rate of punishment on their shields by doing that. > > > > They were also taking hits. You could > > see asteroids exploding off their shields. > > Try watching the movie. > > Yes! The point is it didn't endure fully the asteroid storm. > So concluding that it can endure 2 days is misleading. Han: Sure, Darth Vader had all those Bounty Hunters locked in the Executor's cargo hold and called them out in five minutes. Luke: Don't forget that I was still on Dagobah, training to be a Jedi. You think that you can be a Jedi in one night. Han: (sarcastical) Sure, Luke, be a Jedi tonight. Luke: Sure, (ignites his lightsaber and starts to sing. Luke, be a Jedi Tooonight. Luke be... Wedge: Can you please not sign. > > > Thus > > > showing that without their attack on the asteroids the ISDs shield > > > would have been down much sooner. So claiming they can take > > > a lot of punishement (knowing the fact that each ISDs has at least 60 > > > guns to fire on asteroids) is false. > > > > Watch the MF flying around- the asteroid density is insanely high. > > The ISD's were > > taking a constant hail of asteroids- their weapons > > were vapourizing as many as > > they could, but even with hundreds of batteries they > > wouldn't catch them all. Read > > the TESB novelization. Read the official literature. > > First the MF was FLYING around. Evaluating the density with that > is also misleading. Secondly, the fact remains that 60 guns can > stop a lot of asteroids. So how can you evaluate the number of > asteroids that really hit the ISDs? If it takes 3 seconds to recharge > and fire for each gun then you have 60*3600/3 = 72,000 shots in an hour. > So basically 72,000 asteroids can be stop by one ISD in that hour. > Now! what was the density of that asteroid field AGAIN? Lando: More dense than ANYTHING seen in Star Trek. Jaina: but, not nearly as dense as Paul. > > > Well if that is true then statements like 'True Q' like 12.75 billion > > > gigawatts, by Data to Amanda (young Q) and Kim to Seven of nine 5 > > > millions gigawatts, are true. By the way the DREAM TEAM won. Remember! > > > Proving once again that tactics are better than raw power. > > > > Sure, they're true. I include the 12.75 billion GW statement > > in my discussions. Go > > knock down another strawman, Paul. > > Sadly other strawmen are dumb. You are intelligent that makes it more > worth the effort. If I am to accept that SW is stronger than ST it must > be proven by somebody that is intelligent. In this case that is you. Luke: Please, I've seen Wamprats smarter than Paul. Let's face it, Wong is to Paul what Buffy is to a Vampire. Jaina: Does that mean that mean they're going to have sex and Paul is going to lose his soul? Leia: What!?! Jacen: That's what happened on Buffy. Bel Iblis: You let your childrn watch holonet programs like that, yet you won't let them watch the Empire Strikes Back? > > > In Insurection the drones fired > > > things to the people in order to transport > > > them on the Sol'ar ship. Those people > > > were not dissolved but transported. > > > (BTW I didn't see the movie yet, but other trekkers did.) > > > > Ah- I stand corrected then. > > I had assumed that the writers > > were finally going to > > be gutsy enough to show civilian casualties, and stray from their usual > > mamby-pamby limp-wristed style. I see that I was wrong. > > You an engineer made a wrong assumption! HOW is that possible? > Were you watching or on drugs at the time?. Luke: Leia is the only one who takes drugs. Leia: I thought we weren't going to mention that here! Luke: We you got to face that little problem. Leia: Cut me some slack, look at who my husband, brother, and father are. It's no wonder I'm a drug addict. Han: Hey don't blame this on me. Karrde: How come I never heard of Leia's drug problem. Man Montha: Well, she's written a book about it. Post Cards from the Edge, I think it's called. > If for one ST film you > can make a MISTAKE then the rest of your conclusions based on > assumptions must be revised. > You claim to use scientific rigourous method. Now it's time to prove > it. How come you didn't made the difference between beaming people and > being killed with weapons? Mon Montha: How can you, Paul, knock someone for making an error when you didn't see the movie yourself? Karrde: Second, just because Wog made one mistake on a recent film that only out in the theather, meaning it's a bit hard to study than some episodes or films. Lando: Above all, this shows that at least Wong is man enough to admit it when he's wrong. Paul on the other hand. > (Two of your arguments were put together here): > > > You don't need a precise number of ships to generate extremely conservative > > estimates. The 1E26 watt estimate is based on the extremely conservative > > assumption that they have TEN MILLION ships. > - > > > > > Also a SECOND contradiction > > > from you is one web page, you contributed to: > > > http://www.snowhill.com/~by/tlvph.html">Turbolasers vs Phasers > > > That web page states that the holes the Enterprise-D made on a planet, > > > the episode of Data meeting his mother, produced 470 TW. The process > > > used to arrive at 470 TW was vaporization. > > > > Which is a conservative way to estimate it. It's generous > > to Trek, but most SW vs > > ST discussions are generous to Trek (including mine). > > If we were to use your > > method of "find one particular incident and hang > > onto it like a dog hanging onto a > > bone" then we could easily pick various incidents > > and harp on them to death (eg. > > "Survivors"). > > So using the CONSERVATIVE WAY TO ESTIMATE the dissapearance of the > matter on the Founders'planet is a generous gift to the ST side. > Well let see: Volume of a 20 m asterois is: 4188.79 m^3 > Power to vaporize that 20 m asterois is 250 TJ > So vaporization factor (VF)= 250 TJ/4188.79 m^3 > VF= 5.97*10^10 J/m^3 > Now volume of earth crust: 2.03*10^19 m^3 > Energy to vaporize that crust: 1.21*10^30 J Gariel: What a minute? What makes us think that Founders planet is similar to Earth? Chewie growls Han: Chewi says we don't. For all we know, the founders could have just terraformed the planet and gave it an artifical gravity. Or some shit that Paul tried to pull with Alderaan. > number of ST ship in TDIC: 20 > Power of the average ST ship (PSTS) is: 1.21*10^30 J/20 > PSTS: 6.05*10^28 J > Power to destroy a planet: 2.4*10^32 J (SW number, mine is 4.54*10^29 J) > Number of Empire ships 10 millions. Half is 5 millions. > Power of an average SW ship (PSWS) is: 2.4*10^32 J/ 5 millions > PSWS: 4.8*10^25 J > Based on generosity the average ST ship is 1260 times more powerful. > With the fact you stated that you compare the end result and you are > generous to ST! Lando: Once again, Paul is hanging on one example and ignoring all the examples that hurt him. Wedge: You mean like the 'Survivors', ST:5, and the DS9 TM which supports the NDF theory. Meaning phasers are more effective against things like rocks, and not armor or shields. > > > The medieval DOGMA is finish! Concluding that they can't hit the core > > > on the basis that there is no reason to stop is DUMB. Concluding that > > > a person can't kill his neighbour just on the fact he broke his nose > > > and stopped is also dumb. That form of logic is not worthy of > > > modern science. It is typicall of cult belief! > > > > No, I am pointing out that their > . decision to blow up the mantle (completely > > unnecessary because if you blow up the crust then everyone > > will already be dead) > > but not the crust is rather confusing unless they > > intended to destroy as much as > > they could, but weren't able to destroy the core. Let's put > > it this way- do you > > have evidence that they CAN destroy the core of a planet? > > Do you have evidence > > that phasers DO operate on thermodynamic energy-transfer principles? > > We seen object hidding in subspace (DS9). If phasers put matter in > subspace then it would be possible to bring it back. So all the > people and objects that went in subspace can be brought back. I didn't > see that in any episodes! > > And all they did was generate a graviton beam- something that an Imperial > > interdictor cruiser does as part of its normal operating regime. > > It was an inverse graviton beam! The interdictor cruiser would have > to modify it. Jacen: Wow, is that the best Paul can come up with? Boy, he's smarter than I thought. (Mara Jade walks in.) Mara Jade: Sorry I'm late. Callista: Who are you? (Han sees Callista and Luke sitting together) Han: Uh-oh! I think we need to clear the room. Mara Jade: I'm Mara Jade Skywalker. Callista: Luke never told me he had another sister. Mara Jade: I'm his wife. Lando: (mutters under his beath) Like there's a difference. Callista: Luke never told me he was married. When this happen. Mara Jade: Wait a minute, Your that Callista tramp. Luke: Um, Mara, I can explain.... um. Q made me do it. Mara Jade: I am not in the mood, Luke. I had a bad time with those Imperials teasing, I am not putting up with any crap from and this vapid whore. Callista: Like it's any different from what you and Calrissian had done, you Imperial Slut. Lando: Hey, don't drag me into this. Mara Jade: You want a peace of me you hussie! (Mara ignites her lightsaber) Callista: Anytime, (Callista ignites her lightsaber.) Han: Ladies, please. Let's save the catfight until later. (Mara and Callista glare at each other, and turns the cold shoulder.) > > > The original reason for torpedos was for battles at warp speed. But > > > we saw in episodes like 'Message in a bottle', 'Basic part 2'and > > > 'Treachery, Faith and the great river' Phasers used at warp. > > > > And yet they STILL use photon and quantum torpedoes, > > even though they can now use > > phasers at warp! This further proves that there is > > no way that phasers can > > possible be equal to thousands of photon torpedoes per > > second, or they would stop > > using photon torpedoes. Thanks for the additional > > evidence- I'll add that to my > > web page. > > Unless your assumption on photon torpedos is false. Secondly, having several > weapons at your disposal is better than rellying on just one. > In ST:6 phasers could not lock on the gases of the cloaked BOP, a torpedo > was needed. Lando: Is this a dodge by Paul? Bel Iblis: Yes, If phasers could be more powerful than a PTorp, then the Torpedoes would not be used in major engagements such as ST:FC, or a better example, ST5 when the Ent fired a low yield torp on a God=like being. > > > > "Smaller can beat bigger?" That's not a theory- that's a > > > > useless piece of > > > > rhetoric, like "the pen is mightier than the sword". A theory involves > > > > actual > > > > numbers, and is based on fundamental physical laws like the First > > > > Law of > > > > Thermodynamics. > > > > > > You must use a different dictionnary than the rest of the world. > > > There is no numbers in all theories just facts to back them > > > up. On-screen evidence are facts to back up this theory. > > > > All scientific theories can be expressed numerically, > > or in equation form. > > Whenever they are applied to any real-life situation, > > they HAVE to be expressed in > > equation form. The problem is that you don't > > understand equations or numbers, so > > you think that a stupidity like "smaller can beat bigger" is a theory. > > Any person can put in numeric form the smaller can beat bigger theory. > See the volume of the DS1 is, taking 80 Km of diameter: 2.68*10^14 m^3. > The volume of the 30 fighters is, putting 10 m of length, 5 m of width > and 10 m of height: 15,000 m^3. > Based on Paul's simplistic theory which states that smaller prevails > over bigger in the SW world then you compare the two volumes and you > can easily see that the side having the smaller volume will win. > The same would work in ROJ. There was the DS2, SSD, Fleet of ISDs for > the Empire and for the rebels about 30 capital ships with 70 fighters. > Don't forget 'that science is based on logic, repeatability, consistensy > and observation.' We all have that here. So by your definition this > UNIQUE theory is valid. Bel Ibis: Paul, you ever hear of sometime called Tactics. Luke: He watches Star Trek. Lando: Hey, let's play along with Paul, smaller beats bigger theory for a minute, if that's true, then the Empire would have to send just T/Fs. > Learning from the master what a UNIQUE experience! Han: We can always throw you into Hyperspace, Paul. That'll be a UNIQUE experience. Leia: Look on the bright side. It's over. Han: For now. -- -Major Tierce "Are you kidding? I've been doing the Vulcan death grip since I was four." -Cordelia Chase