From: tierce@my-dejanews.com Subject: Rebel Science Theather 3000 Rebel Science Theather 3000 In article <8Q0k2.10682$dB4.326580@carnaval.risq.qc.ca>, he791859@merlin.uqam.ca (PAUL JACQUES H.JR) wrote: > Andrew Muir (lgpiett@hotmail.com) wrote: > > Oooh, how very WITTY of you Paul - replacing YOUR name with MINE in the > > topic! I'm cut - I mean, the scope and depth of your wit could wound the > > most ardent poster. > > Imitation is the best form of flattery! You taught me well MASTER! Artoo-Detoo beeps and whurps. Threepio: Artoo says that certainly would explain why not one person imatates, follows, or even seriously listens to Paul. > > No, Ryan proved we both wrote it wrong. That you continue in the face of > > that simply proves that you can't admit that, doesn't it? > > No true! I still believe that Pa'Tak is the right way to write that > word. That is not your case. Leia: Do we really give a flying kriff. Han: Please honey, not in front of the kids. (Han covers Jaina's ears, while Luke covers Jacen's.) Jaina: Ouch, my kriffing ears! > > >Kirk used one form of tactic. Picard, Sisko, Janeway used other forms. > > > > Incorrect. Picard, Sisko and Janeway charge into battle melee style. Try > > watching Star Trek, Paul. > > Remember 'The Defector' Picard surprised the Romulans with the cloaked > BOPs. Sisko forced the ex. security officer (Maqui) to surrender. > Janeway fooled the people who hunt down people with telepathy. > Those TACTICS are not MELEE. Luke: Guys can you help me out. What tactic was seen in 'Tears of the Prophets"? Lando: I'd say a Melee. Luke: Okay, what about First Contact? Ackbar: That would be considered a Melee, as well? Luke: What about all those times Voyager engaged the Kazon ships. Wedge: There is a word that they use to describe it? Luke: A Melee? Bel Iblis: Yes, a terribe one at that. > > >Yes the Empire are tactically challenged. Several reasons: > > >a) ANH, not putting the DS Kinetic shield. > > >b) ANH, not getting the droids. > > > > Hello, Paul! Wakey wakey - they went down, got the pod and tried to > > retrieve the droids! Notice how they torched Luke's house looking for them? > > Notice that the only reason they didn't get the droids was that Kenobi used > > the Jedi mind trick? > > The fact remains: the Empire didn't get those DROIDS. Mon Montha: Pauly, if only reality as simple as you want it to be? Leia: Tell me about it, The Empire was smart enough to track down the Jawas that sold the driods, out of perhaps the hundreds of sandcrawlers all over Tatoonie. They were smart enough to track down to Owen Lars' home. They were smart enough to set up chack points at Mos Eisley. I'd say that proves that the Empire has tactical sense. Han: Just curious, why are we defending the Empire? Leia: Well, we have the peace treaty that we signed with them at the end of 'Visions of the Future'. Luke: Secondly, we fought the Empire. Not Paul, we know that they are not tactically challenged. Such accusations are an insult to us. The war with them was hard, and that would mean that we're idiots as well if a stupid idiot can give us such a hard time. Han: (thinks for a minute) You're right. That is as insult to us. > > >c) ANH, not sending thousands of TF. > > > > Your studipity knows no bounds. > > The Empire had 7000 TF. The rebels 30 fighters. The Empire could have > sent 600 TF to stop the rebels. More if they wanted to. You're > evading the fact that a superior number of TF would have stopped > the rebels for good. Bel Iblis: Hey, Paul... ever hear the term 'Friendly Fire'? Wedge: Another thing, what makes Paul think that more TIEs would have mattered. All we needed to do was get one X-Wing in that trench to drop the torpedoe. And all 600 or 7000 TIEs couldn't fit in that trench. Chewie growls in his Wookie tongue. Wedge: Excuse me? Threepio: Chewbacca says that not at all the TIEs would be able to go near the rebel fighters without crashing into each other. And don't forget that there was extreme sensor jamming at the Battle of Yavin, so more Tie Fighters could actually prove to be difficult because they would have trouble spotting the rebel fighters. Luke: Hey, we had a hard enough time dealing with the fighters all ready there. We've lost Biggs and 26 other good pilots. Plus hitting that exhaust port was next to impossible. If I Han didn't have his change of heart, Vader would have shot me down... Wedge: Wait a minute! I thought you said it was shooting Wamprats at home? Luke: I lied. > > >d) ESB, not getting Luke. > > > > Ehhhhhh? Uhhh, are you referring to the fact that the Falcon got into > > hyperspace? Did you remember that they went so far as to DEACTIVATE the > > Falcon's hyperdrive? Sorry, the Empire did a GOOD tactic - that they CAN'T > > PREDICT THE FUTURE isn't their fault, Paul. > > The Empire has two Force adepts: the Emperor and Vader. We know with > the Force you can see the future. So YES those two can predict the > future. Secondly, the fact STILL remains they didn't get Luke. Yoda: Predicting difficult. Future in constant change. Luke: Everyone knows that master Yoda. Yoda: Idiot Paul, does not. Luke: That's his problem if he doesn't understand the Force. That's surprising since the force is very effective against someone like him. Jaina: Explain, Uncle Luke. Luke: My mentor Obi-wan said that the Force can have a strong influence on the weak minded. Han: There's the flaw right there. The mind has to exist for the Force to work on him. Luke: Ah, I stand corrected. > > >e) ROJ, not seeing the Ewok as a menace. > > > > Strategic underestimation. They weren't a threat until the Rebels got > > involved. > > If that was the case then why the guns in front of the Empire base? Han: Gee whiz, wouldn't make sense for someone to put weapons at base installation? Lando: Nevermind that, what's an Empire base? Lobot: I think he means Imperial Base? > > >f) ROJ, not completing the DS2 and destroy 1000 planets. > > > > ROTFL. > > Evading AGAIN! The sad fact is if the Emperor had waited for > the completion of the DS2 and had destroyed several worlds. > Then, the habitants of the Galaxy would have hunted down the > rebels for the Emperor. Why? The Fear of being destroyed. Mon Montha: He seriously think that people will buckle so easily. He has no clue about running a galaxy-wide government. Moreover, People will not fold like a coward like he claims. Leia: The more you tighten your grip the more systems will slip through your grasp. Luke (in a Scottish accent): You may take our lives but you will never take our freedom. Leia: That was really good Luke. Luke: Thank you. You should have seen me in 'Guys and Dolls'. > > >g) ROJ, not having a successor to the Empire in case of the death of > > > the Emperor. > > > > ROTFLMAO! They DID, Moron boy! > > If the Emperor had a good successor then factions would not have been > created. Karrde: What about that blue guy who wrecked havoc on the New Republic five years after Endor. Luke: You mean Thrawn? Karrde: Yes, wouldn't he be considered a good successor. Han: Yes he would, but Paul doesn't realize that. Wedge: I don't even think Paul realizes that one plus one equals two. > > >Kirk did it. > > > > But, dumbfuck, it ISN'T a tactic! You can't create luck, because of the > > very definition of 'luck'. > > I never said create luck. I said use it for your benefit. Han: Not what Chuck says, and he seems to be the most knowledgeable person in the NG when it comes to tactics. Military Academies in 20th century Earth will flunk ant one who uses luck in their tactic. Luke: It's a pity that the Federation doesn't follow the practical advice from their 20th century. Leia; That's what happens when you build a military academy in San Fransico. Luke: I've heard about that city. And Starfleet built it's main military academy there! Ackbar: Yup. Luke: That would explain their uniforms. > > >The bluff did work. The 8472s made recreations in order to infiltrate SF. > > > > The bluff DIDN'T work - the bluff would've worked if Species 8472 buggered > > off to fluidic space and never came back. They didn't, therefore THE TACTIC > > DIDN'T WORK. > > This means, with your approach, that you agree with me in > the case of the DS. That it didn't create fear. Since it didn't stop > the rebels. Leia: The Death Star did create fear among the people. It's how people react to the fear that matters. And the Empire wasn't bluffing when they said they were going to use it. There's a difference Paul. > > >ST history. Treaty of algeron prevented a War between the Federation and > > >the Romulans. > > > > And fostered bad feelings between the Federation and Romulans which sparked > > off an isolationist precedent. > > It doesn't matter! There was peace. Luke: Sure, Paul, only the end result matters. Lando: Well, that how Paul looks at things. Because he knows 'how' these things, mainly the Federation victories, will not happen in a war with Empire. > > >ST history. Treaty of Kitamer gived peace between the Federation and > > >the Klingons for 50 years. > > > > KhiTOMER. And I remind you that the Federation and the Klingons disavowed > > the Khitomer Accords and went to war in "Way of the Warrior". So that > > little treaty didn't work, did it Paul? > > I said for 50 years! Han: That's it? The Old Republic keep peace in the Galaxy for 25,000 years. > > >ST history. The non agression treaty between the Dominion and Bajor > > >protected Bajor from the Cardassians. > > > > At gunpoint. It was also renegged upon by Bajor later. > > It doesn't matter! Bajor was safe. Han: What about the Cardassian Occupation? Bajor wasn't safe. Lando: Don't forget about the Dominion. The last thing that Bajor will ever be is safe. > > ST History: Surrender of Romulans by subspace radio in 2161 resulted in bad > > feelings and another war, much later. > > A minor shirmish! Kirk took care of it. > > > ST History: Cardassian/Federation peace treaty causes the splinter faction > > of the Maquis, and severly stresses Federation/Cardassian relations, causing > > another war. > > Stressed, but not stopped. Until the Dominion came. Lando: Still the Maqui faction was created. Ackbar: That's right, since the Empire is tactically stupid for having its factions, then the Federation are just as stupid. Luke: Not only that, but the Maqui are pretty much like the Alliance, we're both Rebels fighting an unjust government. So, that means that the Federation is much like the Empire, so if the Paul claims about the Empire being tacticall challenged is true, then the same must go for the Federation. Threepio: That excatly, Master Luke, Paul has been known to use the double-standard. Luke: I thought as much. > > ST History: A temporary 'peace' with the Borg ("Scorpion") results in > > Janeway being betrayed by the Borg. > > It was anticipated by Chakotay. Luke: And Janeway didn't listen. And she knew that it would happen. What does that say? Ackbar: She's an odiot. > > ST History: a Romulan/Dominion nonaggression pact almost ceeded the Alpha > > Quadrant to the Dominion. > > That is why Garak and Sisko used deception. BTW deception is a form of > tactic. Jacen: Mommy, I got something to say about Paul. Leia: Does it involve the 'K' word? Jacen: Nope. Leia: Then go ahead. Jacen: If stupidy had tactical value, Paul would be the next Grand Admirial Thrawn. Leia: That was good, I'm proud of you. > > >I do understand your fustration about Janeway. But the fact remains is > > >she is not Stalin (dictator), Chamberlain (chicken). > > > > Janeway = idiot. Betrayed by the Borg, walks into situations without > > slightest tactical knowledge (Kazon), destroyed her crew's chances at > > getting home (more than once), alienates 90% of the species she meets - > > Janeway is an idiot, and again (this is becoming boring for me) you can'r > > refute that she is a tactical nincompoop. > > She is still here! Alive and well! So she can't be that bad. Wedge: Oh yeah. She's alive, only because she's a coward. And the entire the Delta Quadrent hates her and the Federation she represents. Lando: I think Piett mentioned that. Wedge: True, and Paul dodged it because he can't refute it. Chewie growls Han: You said it Chewie. > > >We will see in future episodes. > > > > And we'll see in future movies of SW that the Empire resurrects itself, > > builds ships that can obliterate planets with one shot and is full of > > Thrawn-esque tactical geniuses. Hurts when I apply 'Paul-logic' to an > > arguement, doesn't it? > > It won't happen! Lucas wants to make money. So he will apply his old > recipe: Good Guy always win. Han: I can say for certain that the Good Guys won't win at the end of episode three. Luke: And still, it'll make more money than any Trek movie we can name. That should disprove Paul's little theory. Han: Sometimes I amaze even myself. Leia: That shouldn't be too hard. > > >No I didn't. > > > > Yes, you ARE. You are no longer claiming they use good tactics! You're > > claiming that it doesn't matter how inept they actually are fighting, only > > that they won - because they were 'lucky'! You're changing your story > > between paragraphs, Paul, and i'm getting annoyed at it. > > First they are not inept. Han: funny, I though there was a list of all the tactical blunders the Federation committed. Leia: Tierce said he was going to compile the posts and form a list. Tierce: Hey, cut me some slack. I got a life to worry about, plus right I'm working on this RST3k post. > Secondly, the real thread was: The > Empire is tactically challengeD. (I put the D this time) > You brough up the tactics of the Federation. > > > >Luck is part of tactic. > > > > Part of tactic? Interesting phrase. You wouldn't mean "part of A tactic" > > now, would you? > > No! Part of tactic. Threepio: I am fluent in over six million forms of communication, and Paul's sentence is grammicly incorrect. It should either be 'part of tactic' or 'Luck is part if tactic.' Artoo: Beep beep, whrup! Threepio: I am well aware that Grammar is the least of Paul's problems. > > The Ewoks made a difference in ROJ. > > >in SOTP they are reduce to a meaningless organization. > > > > Paul, you're dodging again! > > Remember! The original thread was: The Empire is tactically challenged. > > > "Therefore, by YOUR OWN ADMISSION, the Federation uses poor tactics - if > > they didn't, they wouldn't need luck". > > > > Refute THAT. > > Like I said before. Luck is part of tactic. Ackbar: Luck my be part of >the< tactic, put you should never plan on it. Leia: I hate to say this, put we shot ourselves in the foot. Luck has won many of our battles. Ackbar: But, at least we charge into battle with a tactical plan, and organize our fleets in formations. Starfleet could learn a lot from that. Bel Iblis; Just curious, what would you consider Lando's decision to fight the ISD at close range, or Han's assult on the ISD in ESB? Lando: Suicide tactics. but it still a tactic. > > And the Empire doesn't NEED > > Oh! It does. A wise tactician would have put the Ewoks on his or her > side. Preventing the rebels to use them against the Empire. Luke: And what would the Empire need with Ewoks? Lando: Got me? Mon Montha: Remember Paul is still using his impossible standard that the Imperials are pyshic. > > >No it didn't Sisko prevailed at the end. > > > > LMAO! Now you've changed your tune AGAIN - 'the bottom line matters, the > > tactic doesn't'! Paul, do you enjoy being a hypocrite, or is it just in > > your nature? > > I enjoy annoying you! Proving time and time again that the Federation > would be a pain in the ass to the Empire. You must admit it works well. Han: I must have missed something. Did Paul prove that. Leia: No, he's just being delussional again. > > It was a BAD TACTIC. You claim that the Federation uses good tactics, yet > > you don't care if on-screen proves you differently! That Sisko is alive is > > because he is LUCKY, not because he used a good tactic. > > Sisko is alive because of the prophets. They can see the past and future. > They chose Sisko because it could be no one else. Han: Looks like Paul is wiggling away from the point. Piett said didn't win because his 'good' tactic. > > >Yes! it has. The Empire conquers. They didn't reach that goal in SOTP. > > > > The Primary job of any nation is to survive, that is what they were doing in > > SOTP. Oh, BTW, I suggest you try reading SOTP. > > They survive because they have no other choice. Their past stupid decisions > forced them to that position. Lando: I though we put the Empire in that position. Luke: Paul really should read SotP sometime. Han: let's hope he doesn't pull an Elim and only skim to find what he could use against them. Mon Montha: The sad thing is that even the SotP Empire could defeat the Federation. Leia: That's true. They have Thrawn-ish leaders. We're at peace with Empire, so we're not going to help. Luke: Plus there is the Hand od Thrawn. Starfleet is screwed. > > >> Any structure that has its leadership decapitated suffers greatly! They > > >> lost the control of the Emperor, so all the power hungry vassals started > > to > > >> grab power - when THAT happened, it started to splinter. > > >> > > > > > >Stupid argument. A good organization has successors. We have a president > > >and a vice-president. If the president is gone then the vice-president > > >takes over. > > > > Where is the Federation vice-president, hmmm? > > The Federation consul takes care of that. Leia: Did they take care of that when, Leyton took control? > > The Federation, by your own logic then, is stupid, because a person like > > Admiral Leyton was able to almost take it over. Where was the strong > > leadership, Paul? > > Leyton didn't succeed. He was stopped. REMEMBER! Luke: So what he was stopped. But the fact remains that the Federation has poor leadership because it happened in the first place. > > >They built the DS for fear remember! > > > > *sigh*. Deary me, such a pity. A human being sitting there, breathing air > > and eating food that could be saved for other people. IT WAS BUILT TO SCARE > > PEOPLE INTO *NOT* REBELLING! And also to destroy the Rebels that were THERE > > (i.e. the Rebel Alliance). And it worked, too - no new Rebel groups > > appeared after ANH. > > It didn't work. There were rebels in TES and ROJ. > The fear didn't work also, because the rebels fought the DS in ROJ. Wedge: The only reason why we fought was because we, unlike you or the Federation you defend, actually have a backbone. Luke: Don't even bother Wedge, he won't listen. Jaina: What's TES? Lando: Paul means TESB, 'The Empire Strikes Back." Jacen: When are we going to see that movie. Leia: Never. Han: Are you still worried about that one scene with you and Luke. Leia: Yes, I don't want the twins getting any ideas. > > >He is the only one I respect. > > > > Then why do you claim the Empire is tactically challenged? If some of the > > Empire are good, according to you, you're invalidating your OWN statements! > > Thanks, Paul - you're refuting your own points FOR me! > > One member being good doesn't put the entire organization on that status. Han: That just shoots all credibility Starfleet will ever have. I can only name a few out of 4000 captains in SF that are competent. But that doesn't put the entire Federation on that status. Ackbar: I hate to admit that the Empire has many officers who are just as smart. > > >In a primitive society yes. But not an advance military organization like > > >the Empire. > > > > You idiot! You can't alter human reaction! Do you think a TIE pilot is > > tens of thousands more times alert than a Zulu warrior? Hell no! Computers > > can go as fast as they like, but technology can't go as fast. Stop trying > > to dodge, Paul, and face up to reality. > > Computers are faster than human reactions. Well ST computers are! Han (truns to a ST computer): Computer what time is it? ST Computer: Accessing.... Bel Iblis: (looks at his watch) It's 8:11 PM. ST Computer: (three minutes later) It's 8:14 PM. Bel Iblis: Told ya. > > >You're shrinking space now?!? > > > > Did you notice how much space the Rebel fighters were confined to, Paul? > > The scope showed them restricted to, at max, 40km of trench area. They > > stayed about a KM above that, at Max, and they didn't deviate a long way > > from the trench. You couldn't fit 7000 TIEs in that space and expect them > > to be able to actually move. > > Okay! fit 1000 TF. The result would be the same: NO MORE REBELS. Jaina: Can I say something about now. Han: Go ahead. Jaina: If idiots can fly, he would be a Super Stardestroyer. Han: That's was good. Daddy is proud of you. > > >A good tactician knows when to leave. > > > > Yes, true. Funny, why didn't anyone try to leave Wolf 359? > > Yes people left: Sisko and the crew of the Saratoga, with others. Leia: Only when the Saratoga was destroyed. > > Tarkin decided that there was a greater chance the DS would succeed than be > > destroyed. Han, after all, said the shot was "1 in a million". Even if it > > only had a 10% chance of success, then Tarkin was CORRECT in staying behind. > > Modern field commanders don't leave the field because they have a 10% chance > > of being hit, Paul. > > No he wasn't correct. The proof he died. Bel Iblis: Tarkin just didn't see into the Future like Paul wants him too. Piett's still right. Ackbar: Paul's theory simply relieson the fact that the Empire is psyhic and the Rebels are cowards. > > >That is why they lost in ANH. > > > > They lost in ANH because of the force, Paul. Something they couldn't have > > anticipated. If Luke hadn't been force sensitive, the torpedo wouldn't have > > gone down the port and the Rebels would've won. > > They lost for two reasons: Luke: My force-atuned abilities Han: My last minute change of heart. Chewie roars Han: Okay, Chewie talking me into it. > a) Not putting the DS Kinetic shield. Luke: Hey, Wedge, remember Dodonna's breifing at Yavin. Wedge: Yeah. He said the DS was heavily shielded. > b) Not sending a superior number of TF. Threepio: I though they had superior numbers of TF. Luke: What Paul means is superior to the point where the do down from friendly fire. > > >Kinectic shield would have protected them from the rebels fighters. > > > > Doeesn't matter. Your logic is flawed, because you're assuming that the > > Empire should've been psychic. > > They are two Force user in the Empire: Vader and the Emperor. That is > psychic to most people on this planet. Mara Jade: What am I? Chopped liver? Leia: What are you doing here? Shouldn't you be with the Imperials. Mara Jade: Well, technically since I'm on the New Republic's side in the novels, I belong here. Think, I have to endure twice as many posts from Paul. Luke: Sucks to be you. Leia: Don't look at me, you married him. Mara Jade: Well, he's your brother. > > >People died in wars. > > > > Yes. Do you know the acceptable combat attrition rate? 10%. Once you are > > over that, you are into losses which border on insanity. How many Ships > > were at Wolf 359? 40. How many survived? 1. Thats a 97% attrition loss, > > Paul, and for any army in the world it'd be an absolute disaster. People > > died in Wolf 359 because SF has incompetant idiots in charge, who are > > completely ignorant when it comes to tactics. > > 39 ships out of 3000 ships. That is 1.3% lost. That is very good. Lando: There were 3000 ships at Wolf 359? Ackbar: Of course not. The best they could get is 40. But if we must use Paul's logic, then the Empire only suffered a .00024% loss in the ISD fleet at Endor. Luke: Well, it wouldn't be the first time Paul shot himself like that. He proved that the Empire is 99.9998% tactically efficent. > > >ST history proves that you are wrong. > > > > No, it doesn't you dumb piece of french canadian shit. > > Don't condemn a group of people for the action of one. Han: And how many times does Paul or any other Pro-ST zealot condeem the Empire for it's mistakes. > Paul the DA'HAR master. Leia: I'm not even going to comment on that one. -- -Major Tierce "Are you kidding? I've been doing the Vulcan death grip since I was four." -Cordelia Chase